hammertime
This work is licensed under a
Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License.
Coleman controls for Kinyon style forging hammers |
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| UPDATE!! 09/16/07 | Well, I can’t seem to get my stuff together and actually document this in a way that I would be happy to pay money for… so, in the blacksmith’s spirit of sharing ideas, I’m just gonna post all the documentation that I have under a Creative Commons License. In other words, you’re welcome to use this information in just about any way as long as you attribute the original work to me, don’t use this info for commercial gain, and share your ideas with the community. As such, if you find ways to modify/improve this design, please send your improvements back to me so that I can include them here. If you find this info helpful, send me a note… better yet, send me something that you create on your own hammer. If it’s really useful and you’d rather just send a few bucks… you can do so hereDISCLAIMER:All power hammers are inherently dangerous tools. If you decide to use the ideas here and try to copy what I’ve done, BE VERY CAREFUL. I am not an engineer, physicist, etc. I am a tinkerer. There may be big flaws in my design that could make it’s use dangerous. Use this info AT YOUR OWN RISK and don’t do anything stupid. |
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| What? | Well, it’s a Kinyon style hammer with a control system of my design. These controls provide an open-throat, adjustable stroke, speed control, and auto-clamping. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Why? | I’ve built 3 basic Kinyon hammers and was very pleased with them until I saw a Sahinler in action. Shortly after, I saw a video of a Phoenix hammer and really fell in love. But, I’m basically a hobbiest when it comes to blacksmithing. So, like many of you, it’s a bit tough for me to justify spending $10k on a forging hammer. But I REALLY wanted the functions of these high-end hammers and I love designing tooling so I did. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Who? | My name is Chris Coleman and I am in Arizona. Please post your comments, questions, etc. below. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Photos | Photos with tags can be found on flickr. You must click on “join group” in order to view the images. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Overview | Ok, this video is the basic overview of what the hammer is and does… |
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| Technical Overview | this is a 10 minute walk through in which I try to explain what each component does… | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Tooling Overview | this is an example of how tooling and or large workpieces can be accomodated with this design… |
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| Parts list | Here are some of the basic parts needed to take a standard Kinyon hammer to my controls…
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| Q&A | Q:
A:
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| Built by others? | Here’s a few images of a cool 200lb’r built by Mike Selinsky of Colorado Forge. He’s using the inverted design similar to the Phoenix air hammer and I haven’t actually seen it, but I’m guessing that Kinyon’s new plans are something like this. Anyhow, Mike has adapted my control scheme to motivate this monster. Cool stuff!! You can find comments from Mike in the comments below.
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28 Responses to “hammertime”
Chris, thanks for the answer. What I got from that is the design is open to interestying and potentially useful improvements by means of control over the lower block.
One other thing. In the video you illustrated the clamping function. But it seems that might not work as advertised if the piece being clamped were thick enough so that the hammer position were high enough to activate the upper control block.
By Paul Boulay on Sep 17, 2007
Yes and no
Because of the way it is designed (this is one of the things that took me a substantial amount of time to figure out) you can have a workpiece or tool that is essentially as tall as the open throat and the hammer will still stroke and clamp. The thing that does happen, and it was a completely accidental benefit, is that it turns into a treadle hammer. You must press and release the treadle for every blow.The third video shows the use of tooling with constant striking. It’s also very easy to do single strikes by just pressing and releasing the treadle.
By admin on Sep 17, 2007
Great job! Good to see thoughts being shared to help metalworking community. Was curious if you’ve experimented with other improvements in combination with the ones you’ve already done, such as the Mark Linn modifications on the AFC website (regulators to equalize up and down forces, or inverted cylinder mounting which sort of accomplishes the same thing, as in Bull/Phoenix)?
Also, as throttle and and limit switch movement linkage appear both connected to treadle, is it possible to get full throttle hits high in the head travel as would be needed with tall tooling or forging wide flatbar edgewise?
By George Harwood on Sep 22, 2007
Thanks,
I just went to lookup Mark Linn’s info and it looks like they’ve changed their website and no longer have that info online. Anyhow, from what I remember of his air design, the air system isn’t that much different. If I’m not mistaken, we are both using 2 switch valves and a dual pilot main valve. The difference, of course, is that my switches move. As far as regulators go, I don’t really see a purpose for them within my design, although switching out the needle valves that I am using, for speed control valves may be a good idea.
I really like the inverted cylinder idea. The ideas behind my controls can be applied to just about any physical style of hammer.
As for the throttle/switch question… you are correct. You don’t get “full” throttle with taller stock or tooling. However, if you watch the third video (splitting bar stock with a chisel) you can see that there is still significant force being applied.
Hope that answers your questions.
Chris
By admin on Sep 22, 2007
Hello, This is propably an odd question ,what type of tubing did you use on your hammer? Mcmaster has several types of plastic tubing and different wall thicknesses. The fittings look to do a clean job.Thanks
By William Crouch on Sep 24, 2007
I used this mcmaster part #50375K832.
Not sure if this is the best choice. If I remember correctly, this was something of a price/performance trade-off. You should probably use whatever tubing is called out for those fittings by mcmaster.
By admin on Sep 24, 2007
This is a beautiful control scheme. Thank you for sharing this information. I would love to know more about the more mundane aspects of this machine as well. What does the ram weigh? What is the anvil weight? Thanks again, JM
By Jason Mecum on Oct 31, 2007
thanks Jason. The hammer in the videos has a 55-60lb ram and I think the anvil is around 500lbs including the base.
By admin on Nov 1, 2007
Chris, had a thought relating to how to get full throttle at different points in the stroke. As most of these things are set up, treadle to throttle movement and ratio is fixed at one point (although you do have adjustment by way of multiple holes which would not be done quickly during use). Being in the steam loco business, I’m thinking of how valve travel length is changed by one simple movement of a lever. Google walschaerts valve gear and take a look at how a sliding block running in a curved link allows you to adjust the ratio that the valve is acted on by one simple movement. If the end of the treadle that has the adjustment holes were this curved link instead, it would give variable ratio to the throttle with one quick lever movement. Just a thought for whatever it’s worth.
By George Harwood on Nov 2, 2007
Thanks George. I just looked at it quickly… not real sure that I understand how/what it’s doing, but will go back and look at it in more detail soon.
By admin on Nov 2, 2007
George’s comment got me thinking and I just want to restate why I decided to put this information out there for anyone to use…
It seems to me that for the last 20-30 years we’ve been living in a world of self-centeredness. I’m no exception. When I devised this control scheme, the first thought through my mind was ‘how am I gonna make money off of this?’.
Over the last 5 to 10 years, there’s been a significant surge of open-source sharing in the technology fields. This is good for all mankind. Open source thinking breeds projects like wikipedia and puts information and technology in everyone’s hands, which in turn spurs growth of all kinds, in all areas.
I’ve already heard a small whisper of negative commentary about my design. Why someone would feel the need to put-down a free sharing of ideas, boggles my mind. It’s time to see some change in this country. It’s time to open minds a share ideas freely… it’s the only way society can advance. So, George, thank you once again for your sharing of ideas.
By admin on Nov 2, 2007
I think you’re right about the sharing info thing. It’s interesting that the Kinyon design was donated to help others out, and then the next thing you see is a handful of people making various improvements to the design, keeping their ideas closely guarded for fear that someone else may use it. Once you look at the idea of fabricating the basic components and using off the shelf parts for the precision/ complicated stuff then a wide range of results are possible. It seems to me that there are probably a lot of similar ideas and developments going on in different places out there (as there is with the development of anything) and the few guys that are building these things for profit don’t like information being shared. It’s not as though only one person is going to come up with THE best way of making these and then have a lock on it. In thinking about all the possible valving and control mods that could be done to the basic Kinyon idea, I’m wondering if anyone has tried using a control scheme that’s not linked to the ram directly- duplicating the action of a self-contained by running the limit valves off a gear motor- driven cam so the ram wouldn’t care about the height of whatever it was hitting. This could be done with variable speed controls, normal treadle control for exhaust throttling and a bypass circuit to park the head at the top when treadle is up. Have not built anything yet, but if I come up with anything that that works well I’ll be sure to post it!
By George Harwood on Nov 6, 2007
Chris,
Thank you for generously sharing your idea with the metal working community.Please ignore negative comments from others, theres always a few in the a**’s in the crowd.
I’ve been looking at building a mechanical hammer but now that I’ve seen your design I’m thinking the air hammer route will be much better for me.
Do you have an air system schematic for the hammer and possibly a picture of each side of the hammer? It’s hard to figure things out when you have to keep bouncing back to youtube video although they deffinately help understand whats going on.
By Brad Anderson on Dec 5, 2007
The Linn/Sargent control plans are still online at http://afc.abana-chapter.com/air_control.html. The AFC has changed sites and the new webmaster didnt see fit to move that information over so Jock graciously offered to keep it on his site..
By Mike Linn on Dec 21, 2007
Do you have any info on the frame construction of this hammer you could share with us
By Mike Schwab on Dec 28, 2007
Mike, the frame is what I’d consider a ’standard’ Kinyon style. You could build it a million different ways. Go to abana.org to purchase plans for the Kinyon hammer.
By admin on Dec 30, 2007
Thanks for sharing this information. There are folks out there building Kinyon style hammers, putting some plate on the sides, and selling them for big bucks, and not sharing their ideas at all. I’d asked one of them about how to get the hammers to clamp and he wouldn’t share that information. I’ve written a couple of articles for the Hammer’s Blow on building these hammers and I’m always looking for improvements. I’d really like to see plans for Ron Kinyon’s new design.
By Phil Rosche on Dec 30, 2007
Something I did different from other hammers I’ve seen is that instead of making the main frame from I-beam, I used a 10″ x 10″ x 3/8″ wall square tube. Then I capped it from all sides making it air tight and used it as an air reserve tank. I think it holds about 25 gallons. The reserve tank helps in a couple of differnt ways. 1)It’s quick air for the hammer for when it’s in heavy use. 2) You have the ability to hold additional air without taking up more shop floor space. 3) You can run the hammer longer before it runs out of air 4) Even though the compressor runs longer to fill both tanks, it still able to cool down for longer periods of time. 5) you have less start and stop cycles on your compressor, reducing wear 6) The difference in price of I-beam and the 10″ square tube is nominal.
I would like to use the control system that you designed. I’ve ordered all the parts from Mcmaster. The main ball valve I recieved is different from the one shown on your video so I’m can’t copy your hose connections. Do you have a drawing showing how everything should be connected?
By Pablo Rivas on Jan 31, 2008
That’s a nice idea.
I haven’t even looked at my hammer for a while, but if not mistaken, the third side of the 3 way ball valve is only used for slowing the clamping stroke down, buy diverting air through a needle valve. Quite frankly, I think you’ll get better performance with a standard ball valve, but clamping might be a little weird.
As for drawings/schematics, sorry, what you see is what you get. You’ll just have to use the stuff I’ve posted to figure it out yourself.
good luck, and let me know what you think when you get it running.
By admin on Jan 31, 2008
Im new to this stuff, sorry. but i really respect what you are showing on this page, anybody kno how this type of system compares to the inverted cylinder style (like the phoenix hammers ive seen?) And also where i can i find the basic plans for a hammer like this, you know the size of cylinder or the way all the other air hoses connect? the 2nd video up there only really shows the slide system. thanks for any help!!
By brian hartley on Feb 8, 2008
I love the look and funtion of your hammer. I have one question on top of the hammer or bottom side side of air cylinder is that some sort of switch or bumper so hammer doesn’t slam bottom of cylinder.
By matt on Apr 8, 2008
Nice observation. Yep, it’s a hydraulic bump stop. Supposed to decellerate (sp?) a load. But it was undersized from the beginning. I wound up putting a hard stop on it so the head hits a stop rather than slamming the cylinder. The design really needs some sort of modification to use air to slow the head down at the top of it’s stroke. Of course, there are air cylinders with cushions.
By admin on Apr 8, 2008
so what do you set your regulator at pressure ?
By matt on Jun 7, 2008
so what do you set your regulator pressure at?
By matt on Jun 7, 2008
Hello Chris,
like you i fell in love with control of phoenix forging hammer.
and i think, what i see of your control, seem very comparable to phoenix F.H.
then i apologize for my very bad english, i write it, i read it but don’t speak and ear.
and like many people( i think ) i’ll very glad to see a plan of your kinyon/coleman hammer,
because on the video i haven’t understood anything of your explanation. I think many french people are like me.
Perhaps i’ll glad to red you soon.
also thanks for your video and your work.
regards.
Eric.
By Eric on Jul 8, 2008
Thank you Chris!! You a true innovator, and I can’t thank you enough for sharing your innovations with the community. This is the answer I have been looking for! Thanks to you, I will begin my build this winter. -Kyle H.
By Kyle H. on Jul 9, 2008
I wanted to thank you for sharing such a great design. I’ve recently built a 200lb kinyon style hammer with your control system, using twin 2″ cylinders and larger valving, the machine works great, great control, I have the control for small forgings and the ability to work with larger materal as well. Thanks again
By Mike Selinsky on Aug 31, 2008
Chris,
I want to thank you for taking the time to freely offer your ideas. I am sure, your generosity will repay you many times over.
As a machinist and tool designer, I was very impressed with your work and thoughts.
Gary
By Gary Davis on Dec 27, 2008